Days after announcing that he will retire in 2005, U.S. Sen. Fritz Hollings, D-S.C., met with Lee Bandy, political writer for The State, for an extended one-on-one interview.

Here are edited excerpts from Bandy's conversation with the 81-year-old senator from Charleston:

ON HIS RETIREMENT, 55-YEAR CAREER

QUESTION: What's been the reaction to your retirement announcement?

HOLLINGS: Everybody has been really nice. You've got to step aside, and that's when you become a statesman. As long as you're in, you're a bum. .‘.‘.

QUESTION: Did anybody try to get you to reconsider?

HOLLINGS: Good Lord, yeah, but it's time to go. It's well thought-out. I'll be 83 (upon leaving office in January 2005), and I'd be right near 90 if I did win. You lose your effectiveness and everything else like that.

QUESTION: In your years of service in the U.S. Senate, what are you most proud of?

HOLLINGS: Attention to duty. In a senatorial capacity it goes from early morning to late at night. You have three or four breakfasts, and three or four receptions in the evening. You're running from pillar to post to try and see constituents and make different caucuses, meetings and hearings and everything else like that. And I stayed right on top of it. ‘.‘.‘.

QUESTION: What do you consider to be your greatest achievement?

HOLLINGS: Keeping secret the true deficit -- I tried not to. No kidding, we've gotten out of hand. In the early '70s, we had 13 to 14 major appropriations bills but no continuity or concurrence. We said the right hand has got to know what the left hand is doing. So, we organized the budget committee‘. .‘.‘. I've been on that budget committee since it was instituted. And we had truth in budgeting to begin with. We had a conscience about it. When (former Republican U.S. Sens.) Phil Gramm (of Texas) and Warren Rudman (of New Hampshire) were there, we passed the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings fiscal provision (the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985).

QUESTION: But you asked for a divorce from the bill.

HOLLINGS: That's right. We complied with cutting some $35 billion a year for about three years. And then we let it lapse for a couple of years. The next thing you know we were using it as a shield rather than as a sword to prompt us to fiscal responsibility. So, we just didn't comply with it. And, I said, give me a divorce. I don't want my name connected with this fraud. And that's exactly what it was. ‘.‘.‘. We still don't tell the truth.

QUESTION: Do you think you could have won if you had run?

HOLLINGS: I wouldn't think of anything else but winning. It wouldn't be easy. I'd have to come from behind‘. ... I think I could get out and articulate what needs to be done in Washington. I don't think Bush can. If you free press would quit playing politics and worrying about the advertising and worrying about little spitballs and headlines and the political contests and the polls. You folks are worse than we are. You all have got to stay ahead, got to get the headlines. You folks aren't interested in learning. ‘.‘.‘. You just want one smart-aleck remark to headline the story, and that's all they want. They don't want anything in depth.

ON HIS PENCHANT FOR SPOUTING OFF

QUESTION: Speaking of smart-aleck remarks, you've made some pretty biting comments.

HOLLINGS: Well, no, you all thought they were biting. Let's mention them. I'll remind you that I probably intended to say so. Wetbacks‘. .‘.‘. That's exactly what they called the Mexicans coming over, wetbacks, because the poor folks were swimming that Rio Grande to get into the U.S. Ooh, they get so horrified about "wetbacks," but that's what they are. But you've got to call them LULACS or undocumented aliens or some damn legal nonsense. I mean they're wetbacks. Yeah, that's all. The damn poor fool who's trying to live is insulted? No. But the silly politicos, oh, that's terrible. Name another thing.

QUESTION: You called Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition "blackbow."

HOLLINGS: That's exactly what it is. You know any whites in the Rainbow Coalition?

QUESTION: You endorsed him for president four years later.

HOLLINGS: Oh, that's right. That's politics. ‘.‘.‘.

QUESTION: The African potentates coming into Geneva to get a square meal.

HOLLINGS: That's right. They're still eating each other. They get all horrified. But, I mean, that is a fact of life. I mean you heard about the two cannibals sitting down there having lunch, and one turns to the other and says, "I can't stand my mother-in law." And the other one says, "That's all right, just eat your potatoes." That goes on in Africa. If you don't want to be reminded of it, tell them to eliminate it. But that's what happens.

ON PRESIDENTS, PAST AND PRESENT

QUESTION: Of the presidents you've served with, who stands out in your opinion?

HOLLINGS: There isn't any question Bill Clinton‘.‘.‘. was the best by far‘. .‘.‘. Richard Nixon was as smart as any, but he was devious and calculating and suspicious.

Clinton was totally open and ready to take on any and every problem. When (Federal Reserve Board chairman) Alan Greenspan met with him in the governor's office at Little Rock before he took office, he told him he had to raise taxes. And he raised them. Yeah, we raised taxes on Social Security, on gasoline, on income. And we had eight years of economic boom. .‘.‘.

Ford didn't have a chance, and Jimmy Carter was a lot like the present governor‘ (Mark Sanford). .‘.‘. He was running around with the minutiae of government, almost like he was state auditor rather than state governor. Well this fellow, Jimmy, we loved him and supported him. But he really didn't have any friends over in Congress to speak of‘. .‘.‘. He audited. He looked for how he could save and fine-tune. He didn't look to build.

QUESTION: What about Reagan?

HOLLINGS: President Reagan‘. .‘.‘. He wasn't with it. He tried his best to bring people in. ‘.‘.‘. But it was from this failure, to that failure, to actually wrecking the economy with that so-called supply-side economics. George Herbert Walker Bush called it voodoo. Who ever heard of a mayor or governor cutting revenues in order to increase revenues? Well, that's exactly what we did. ‘.‘.‘. And he passed Kemp-Roth (the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981), supply-side, voodoo. And it has never been balanced since except at the end of Clinton's term.

QUESTION: What do you think of George W. Bush?

HOLLINGS: Delightful fellow, the best campaigner you'll ever find. He knows it because he's totally at home going around shaking hands and patting backs, but he has never bothered himself to really do the job of president. ‘.‘.‘. He continues to campaign. He has never looked back to find out what's going on. ‘.‘.‘. He went forward with his tax cuts and now has wrecked the economy. But he says, "Don't worry about it. I'm out campaigning, I'm out fund-raising."‘.‘.‘.

QUESTION: Why does Bush remain so popular?

HOLLINGS: The media. They want access, but they are not going to be critical and get access. That's the way that White House operates, I can tell you that right now.

ON HIS COLLEAGUES IN THE U.S. SENATE

QUESTION: What have you seen in terms of the overall quality of people who enter public life compared to the 1950s, 1960s and today?

HOLLINGS: The quality is the zeal to get something done. It has been replaced by the zeal to stay in office, to get elected. I would have to say that the talent where I serve right now in the Senate is outstanding. Those women senators, you can't find any better than (Democratic U.S. Sens.) Diane Feinstein (of California); Barbara Mikulski (of Maryland); Barbara Boxer (of California).

You can go right on down the list. Pay attention to (Democratic U.S. Sen.) Hillary Clinton (of New York). You want to see an act in progress politically? Here she comes. She's charming. She has gone across the aisle. She's co-sponsoring a bill with Lindsey Graham, who wanted to impeach her husband.

So, the quality of the people is there, but the culture. ‘.‘.‘. We got to do this to win the election. We got to do this for the campaign. We haven't got time for the country.

QUESTION: Among the senators you've served with, who is someone you consider great?

HOLLINGS: Dick Russell (D-Ga.) immediately comes to mind. Everett Dirksen (R-Ill.). You had a bunch of great senators. (Mike) Mansfield (D-Montana) did a masterful job. He kept things going. You got some coming along right now that really know how to handle things and get things done. But it's just tough.

ON THE FUTURE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

QUESTION: Your relationship with the people of South Carolina was more complicated than the relationship the people had with Strom Thurmond.

HOLLINGS: Right. Strom Thurmond was an institution. I never have been an institution. They call it legend or whatever it was. I've had to struggle from the get-go. ‘.‘.‘. (Voters) were changing over to the Republican Party. Strom had just changed over in '64, then you had a viable Republican Party.

QUESTION: With Inez Tenenbaum poised to run for your seat, who does that leave the Democratic Party with to run for governor against Mark Sanford in 2006?

HOLLINGS: They should try to (win) both‘. .‘.‘. Public office is the greatest opportunity in the sense that you can actually influence more than the minister who has got his congregation, or several congregations. The teacher has the classroom, the lawyer his clients.

I was just coming down the road, walking to the beach. That's my bill (National Coastal Zone Management Act of 1972). We don't have to name the damn path after me. I just know, by God, they got it. And I look out here at these schools. That's my bill. We passed the sales tax. I mean, you can really do good. ‘.‘.‘.

(As a state representative in the 1940s, Hollings led a committee that recommended approval of the state's first sales tax for public education.)

But all the youngsters are now taught is that public life is a bummer. And it doesn't pay and it gets your family in trouble and everything else, and you can't afford it. You can't find any candidates for anything.

QUESTION: What do you see in the future for the Democratic Party here in South Carolina? Your party once dominated this state. What happened?

HOLLINGS: Racism came in: All the whites in the Republican Party, all the blacks in the Democratic Party. That's true in Alabama, Texas and Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, right on across the board. South Carolina. But we've got a bright future in that we've got a very interesting and dynamic (state Democratic Party) chairman in Joe Erwin‘. .‘.‘. We got somebody who'll go out and politick in the vineyards, seeing the people‘. .‘.‘.

It's all local. It's not the TV. That's where (2002 Democratic Senate nominee) Alex Sanders failed. He has got the best personality, the best record of anybody that ever ran, but he didn't get out to see anybody. He just got on TV. ‘.‘.‘. They never saw him.

QUESTION: What advice do you have for your successor, whoever that might be?

HOLLINGS: It is hard work, and public office is a public trust. If you got into it to make money, forget it. ‘.‘.‘. It's early morning, late at night around the clock. And that's the whole thing. You've got to get back down here (and meet with constituents)‘. .‘.‘. We've spoiled them. They expect to see you. And in all candor, that's the real interesting part. You learn what's going on. Go around seeing people that are working, and making those mill shifts, working in those plants and everything else like that. It's the best education.

ON HIS OWN BID FOR THE WHITE HOUSE

QUESTION: Why did you run for president in 1984?

HOLLINGS: I thought I could win. I never could get enough money. I didn't (raise) over a couple of million dollars. ‘.‘.‘. So, I had to take every free program I could. I never got my message out. ‘.‘.‘.

QUESTION: Maybe the people in New Hampshire didn't understand you.

HOLLINGS: In Worcester, Massachusetts, where I knocked on doors, I kept calling it "Wor-chest-er." (It's pronounced "Wooster.") That lady said, "Who are you?" I said, "Fritz Hollings." She thought it was a German trucking company.

ON WHAT LIES AHEAD

QUESTION: What's in Fritz Hollings' future?

HOLLINGS: I don't know right now. I've been offered an office here and an office there and a particular task. But we've got a year-and-a-half, plenty of chance to consider. I'm going to work.

QUESTION: What are you going to do with the $1.6 million in your campaign account?

HOLLINGS: I'm not going to pay for the (Feb. 3, 2004) Democratic presidential primary, I can tell you that.

QUESTION: You made the comment at your news conference that maybe you'd come back to Columbia and clean up the mess here.

HOLLINGS: Look here. When (you're governor and) you get the budget in crisis and you take your family and fly off to Bermuda. ‘.‘.‘. If I had done that, you all wouldn't have let me land back in Columbia. Of course, he was your candidate. You're all still in love with him, and that's how he won. He's nice looking. He's good looking. He's got a good personality, and that's why he won for Congress (1995-2001) and won the governorship.

But he ought to get serious with the thing and work with his own friends and colleagues, and get them to tussle and haggle things out and get some programs going. I mean, he acts like he ran for state auditor rather than state governor. He comes from the breed that says government is the problem, and he has come to town to correct the problems of government.

The government is the opportunity. We ought to be responding to educational needs, not firing a thousand teachers. We ought to be creating the jobs. ‘.‘.‘. We missed out on Mercedes. We missed out on Toyota. We missed out on Nissan. ‘.‘.‘.

QUESTION: After you retire, is it possible that you will be a senior spokesman for a special interest group?

HOLLINGS: I've been working in the cancer field and there's been an initiative from New York that says I ought to raise money for cancer research. I could do something like that. ‘.‘.‘. I'd be interested in working for the state -- not The State newspaper -- but the state of South Carolina somewhere.